Village Web Site Forum
Wednesday, November 14, 2007 09:15
We Will Remember Them
On Sunday last, along with thousands of others throughout the country, I stood in silence in tribute to those who have died in the service of their country. In the village where I now live, the names on the memorial are just that - names. I didn't know any of the men whose names are inscribed on the plaque, but I acknowledge their sacrifice. I was but a nipper during the 2nd WW but on the Sutton Memorial there are the names of two boys [that's what they were] who I still remember. Bryan Chapman, who lived in Hazel Grove Road, and Willi Simons who lived a few doors away in Hazel Grove. Before he was called up, Bryan used to cut my hair in a shed which the family had in the garden. I think he was killed in France shortly after D Day. He couldn't have been much more than 18 years old. And Willi Simons was drafted to be a Bevan Boy. I remember Willi shooting at tin cans with his air rifle. He built a punt which he used to tow on a trailer behind his bike. Don't know where he 'sailed' it but I remember that he used to let me sit in it in the safety of the back yard. That was over 60 years ago.............
Wednesday, November 14, 2007 09:31
|There was a moving service in Sutton Park last Sunday. I don't have any personal connections with any of the names on the Memorial but I'm sure everybody who was there acknowledged their sacrifice. I just googled "Bevan Boy" and now understand the significance of "coal mines" listed after the name W Simons.
Thursday, November 15, 2007 09:59
|Denis, not only will we remember them, I’m trying to find them !
About 20 years ago I jotted down all 40 names on the Sutton war memorial from WW1 and have been searching for the medals to these people ever since.
I blame my Uncle Edward Dickinson (a Sutton lad - god rest his soul) for my addiction to medal collecting. He very kindly gave me his WW2 gongs when I was 14 and that unleashed my life-long obsession with medals ! They are still framed along with his photo in uniform on the wall above the fire-place.
I only know one other medal collector in Adelaide, Rod who I catch up with on a weekly basis for coffee in a local café, where we have ‘show and tell’ and drool over our latest medal purchases. The café staff think we’re a couple of crazy kooks (which we probably are !) but they all smile sweetly and pretend that they’re equally as fascinated by peering at the medals with a “Ooo and a Ahh” !
Back to Sutton war memorial, in the 20 years I’ve been searching I haven’t found a single medal to any of the recipients. I’ve scoured and foraged through medal lists, dealer outlets, medal fairs, antique shops and ebay in more recent years.
The closest I’ve come is when I found a single medal to a recipient on the Steeton war memorial (which shares its memorial with the fallen soldiers from Eastburn). I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised really because there were 6.5 million British War Medals issued for WW1 and only 40 names on Sutton war memorial, so it is literally the needle in a haystack scenario.
If anybody is interested (I always assume everyone is, just because I am !) there in an on-line reference to the fallen of the Craven area called “Craven’s part in the great war”. This can be found at http://www.cpgw.org.uk/
I have an original volume of “Craven’s part in the great war” which was presented to a Pte W Lucas, who obviously survived The Great War. Many of the searchable names have got a photo of the recipient.
For example, if you type in the recipient W. Clough it brings up his photo plus the following information : PRIVATE WILFRED CLOUGH, 12th Northumberland Fusiliers, son of Mr. & Mrs. Chas. Clough, Bridge Road, Sutton Mill; died a prisoner of war at Mons-en-Chaussee, July 25th, 1918, and buried at Peronne Military Cemetery. Aged 21 years
Suddenly, those ‘mere names’ on Sutton war memorial - individuals that have long since disappeared from living memory start to reveal themselves in words and photo’s. It’s quite fascinating – if you’re into that kind of thing !
Another web-site is the Commonwealth War Graves Commission which can be found at http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14
Again, individual soldiers can be searched and information gleaned from WW1 as well as WW2, this time from the whole of the Commonwealth, not just from the Craven area.
Down under in SkippyLand they commemorate Anzac Day every 25th April in a big way. This is the day that Australian, New Zealand and Allied forces stormed the Turkish beaches at Gallipoli in 1915. In fact the Dardanelles campaign is so commemorated in Australia that it is referred to as ‘The birth of a nation’, ‘The Anzac Legend’ and is marked with a national public holiday every 25th April.
So 11th November, whilst still commemorated, is a relatively low key event down under.
However, Roderick and I NEVER forget 11.00am on the 11th November.
Friday, November 16, 2007 09:05
Found this on the Commonwealth War Grave site for you.
Bryan Chapman (Private)
Lincolnshire Regiment 4th Bn
Died 18.7.1944 aged 19years
Service number 14624731
Buried Hottot-Les-Bagues War Cemetery, France
Friday, November 16, 2007 12:05
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to give me the information gleaned on my childhood hairdresser, Bryan Chapman. He was only a child himself when he died - but that was the way of things then.
And thank you Andrew for putting me on to Craven's Part in the Great War. I spent several hours last night browsing through it. I used to have a copy of my own years ago, found in an empty house in Skipton which was due for demolition, but it disappeared a long time ago. I was very interested in the entries for Capt. Cedric Fawcett Horsfall whose name is the first on the Sutton War memorial. Was it his brother, John Donald Horsfall who also was a serving officer in the same conflict survived? But I think history repeated itself in WWII when one of Donald's twin sons Capt. Cedric Michael Horfall was killed at Arnhem. [Was he named after his uncle killed in France ?] His name is on the Horsfall gravestone in Sutton church yard [if I remember correctly] but not on the war memorial in the park. Perhaps the link was to Gluburn rather than Sutton in 1945.
Friday, November 16, 2007 21:35
Gravestone Memorial in Sutton Churchyard
In Loving Memory of Nita dear wife of Sir John Donald Horsfall 2nd Batt of Hayfield Glusburn passed away Dec 8th 1936 aged 46 years
Also Cedric Michael their son Capt 10th Batt Parachute Regt 1st Airborne Division
Born April 26th 1918 presumed died of wounds at Arnhem Spt 20th 1944
Also of Sir Donald Horsfall her husband passed away Mch 25th 1975 aged 83 years
Friday, November 30, 2007 20:36
|Regarding the Sutton war memorial, there’s an interesting anomaly I stumbled upon whilst cross-referencing names from “Craven’s Part in the Great War” with the park memorial and surrounding village war memorials.
It would appear that Captain Cedric Fawcett Horsfall and Frederick Simpson, who are both listed on the Sutton memorial, have their names duplicated on the Kildwick war memorial.
Horsfall was of course from Glusburn being the eldest son of Sir John and Lady Horsfall of Hayfield and was a member of the Sutton Baptist Church.
Simpson was a Skip’, born in New South Wales, Australia, but appears on the Glusburn census in 1901 as a 15 year old…..which brings me onto another anomaly.
The reason that Horsfall and Simpson do not appear on the Glusburn memorial is because there isn’t one ! Maybe that’s why they popped them on both the Sutton and Kildwick memorials because they couldn’t decide which one to list them on.
That said, I also came across an Oscar Brown from Glusburn who was killed in action in July 1918. Oscar was the son of Jonathan and Elizabeth Brown of Sunny Bank Villas, Glusburn; husband of Edith Maud Brown of 6, High Hartley St, Glusburn and he doesn’t appear on any memorial at all ! (that I can find)
So why doesn’t Glusburn have its own war memorial, or at minimum a Roll of Honour, when all the surrounding villages do ?
Steeton memorial lists the fallen from both Eastburn and Steeton; Kildwick memorial lists the fallen from Crosshills, Farnhill and Kildwick; and Sutton has its own memorial.
I sent an email to Chris Foster who is a member of the CPGW Craven Community Projects Group to see if he could shed any light on the mystery. He replied with the following response :
“Hi Andrew, Thank you for your email. There is no main memorial at Glusburn and so far we haven't come across any plaques Scrolls etc. That doesn't mean to say that a memorial of some description to the men of Glusburn never existed. We have quite a few gaps where we feel certain that at one time a memorial would have been put up, more than likely a framed Roll of Honour, that over time could have been misplaced”
So my curiosity in browsing through the names listed on the local village memorials has unwittingly raised more questions than answers. Kept me entertained for a while though !
Monday, December 3, 2007 19:54
|Ah, I nearly missed the fact that Richard Whitehall who is featured on the Sutton war memorial is also doubled up on the Cowling memorial, same regiment and regimental number.
R Whitehall is also a unique name to both the ‘Commonwealth War Graves Commission’ and ‘Craven's Part in the Great War’. He was born in Bradford and was killed in action on 1st July 1916.
Although not highlighted, 1st July 1916 was the infamous and ill-fated ‘First Day of the Battle of the Somme’ in which the British ALONE suffered 57,470 casualties, including 19,240 dead – IN ONE SINGLE DAY !. This was the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army. The battle of the Somme continued for several months claiming more than one million casualties on all sides.
Out of the forty names listed on the Sutton memorial, Richard Whitehall was the only one killed on the first day of the Somme, although several others died throughout the summer and autumn of 1916 as the battle of the Somme raged on.
Tuesday, January 22, 2008 21:48
|my uncles name is on sutton war memorial pt t h clague who drown in india in 1942 age 21 and is buried in calcutta
Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:10
My Dad Donald served with the Durhan Light Infantry WW1 does any one have relatives who were also with the DLI?
Saturday, April 12, 2008 11:02
I have just posted a message to try and find anything about a Sutton lad who served with the West Riding Regiment in the Great War.
He wasnt a casualty but have recently purchased his BWM and VM looking at CPGW i cant find him listed on any of the 1/6th or 2/6th Batts nominals unless its a typo!
I wondered if you had come across him 5351 Pte Hartley Feather WRR in your research?
Sunday, April 13, 2008 00:42
As I'm sure you've discovered, it's much more difficult researching survivors of the Great War than it is researching casualties. Web-sites like the 'Commonwealth War Graves Commission' and 'Craven's Part in the Great War' have listed the majority of casualties but not all.
As you say, accessing the Nominal Rolls for WW1 servicemen would be the way to go if they can be found. These rolls list all servicemen who enlisted whether they were casualties or not.
The only Nominal Roll I have is for the 1/6th Duke of Wellington (West Riding) Regiment which you already have. This battalion was raised in August 1914 in Skipton-in-Craven and a Pte W Feather is listed on it who may be the brother to Hartley Feather.
You mention that you’ve downloaded Hartley’s Medal Index Card, I’m assuming from the National Archives at a cost of 3.50 pounds. The only problem with this service is that they only digitised the front of the cards – millions of them – when in fact there is often valuable information written on the reverse also.
However another web-site ‘Ancestry.co.uk’ is now busy digitising BOTH sides of the Medal Index Cards. The only snag is they have only completed downloading about 30% of the cards so far. However, you can join free of charge for a 14 day trial period and browse around. The site also has soldiers service records, pension details and genealogy information, again somewhat limited at the moment but more records are being rapidly downloaded on a daily basis.
I recently downloaded the Medal Index Cards for about half of the casualties listed on the Sutton war memorial – free of charge with Ancestry.
Then there’s the fact that many Great War records were destroyed and burned in the London Blitz during WW2
The Duke of Wellington Regimental Museum at Halifax may have access to more Nominal Rolls if you were to contact them (Tel: 01422 352 334)
Good luck with your search Ady !
As an aside, David I also downloaded the Medal Index Card for your dad Donald Laycock a few weeks ago out of pure curiosity. It was a little disappointing in that the information was rather sparse. I was hoping it would show the date and location for when he entered the Theatre of war.
Alas it just shows his name, regimental number as being 80967 for the Durham Light Infantry and that he was entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal (as shown on his uniform in the 1940 air-raid warden photo). This determines that he served from 1916 onwards; otherwise he would also have been entitled to the 1914 or 1915/15 star. I can easily email it to you if you're interested.
|David in Oz
Monday, April 14, 2008 13:40
Just got back from China last night and catching up on the site news. Thanks anything you have is most welcome. Paul if you don't mind email address for Andrew.
Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:01
|Thanks Paul for supplying David's email address. I sent a short note back to you (Paul) but got a 'delivery failure' notice, not sure why.
Friday, July 11, 2014 20:31
|I re-read Andrew Monkhouse's telling words in 2007: 'Why doesn't Glusburn have it's own war memorial?' Well I can now say that the project is alive. Hopefully later in 2014 in the 100 year centenary year the omission will be put right. When it is fulfilled it may come as a surprise to some at the number of those lost in the Great War from Glusburn and Cross Hills. Some are commemorated at Kildwick, some at Sutton. The reason may rest in the fact that Glusburn, unlike Sutton and Kildwick was not a C of E parish in ecclesiastical terms, although a Baptist stronghold, with connections through the family of the late John Cousin Horsfall. As to Andrew's reference to Oscar Brown - that would be my great uncle. A 27 year old joiner at Horsfall's mill, lost in the mad days of April 1918 on the Lys. For now, a name on the Wall of Remembrance at Tyne Cot Cemetery, but hopefully soon, in his home village too.
Saturday, July 12, 2014 07:28
|Gees I used to blather on back then Patrick. My philosophy these days is that a good story is a short story!
Your Glusburn memorial project sounds very interesting, good luck with that. Incidentally, I've since found out that Oscar Brown is in fact remembered on the Kildwick memorial :-)
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