Sutton-in-Craven Village Website

Village Web Site Forum

From	Subject/message
Ady Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:53	Hartley Feather Sutton Resident c1901 and great war service Hi Ive recently purchased some Great War Medals to a 5351 Pte Hartley Feather who ive set about researching. I have found he was born 1883c in either Kildwick or Sutton He appears on the 01 census as living at 29 Gordon St Sutton as a Joiners apprentice. His dad was Thomas (Joiner) mum Elisabeth and he had a brother Willie. Ive checked CPGW for any reference and cannot find any although a number of Feathers are mentioned Can anyone provide me with other info please.such as does the village have a roll of honour for men who served and returned as well as war memorial? His Medal Index Card indicates that although he has an early service number he didnt deploy overseas until 1916 or later and he survived the war. Thank you for any help. Ady
Joan Cowling Sunday, April 13, 2008 21:22	I've researched all Cowling's WW1(60) and WW11(10) men who died, and made two albums giving details from CWGC site, and many other sources. The site only gives those who died, also Walter Morrison's Craven's Men who died WW1 (copy in Skipton Library). Besides village memorials outdoors for those who died, you might find others for men who served but came home, in local churches, chapels, even places of work, and cricket and football clubs etc. (some demolished), and Keighley and Skipton Libraries might have more details if you ask. Also you could study the old Craven Heralds and Kly. News for the war years (on film in libraries). Or ask at the Militaria Exhibition at Pudsey Civic Hall (think there has been one of those today)? Word of mouth and your message on this site might bring more information. V. sad project, but also v. interesting and time consuming?
Ady Monday, April 14, 2008 08:43	Joan Thanks for your tips im probably working in the Craven area over the next month so will visit the libraries. The papers of the time have been the best source whilst ive been researching my local Church Roll of Honour(Hartshead WYR). ive just spent the last two yrs trawling through old newspapers and church rolls ive found lads from all over the place who worked in a rural village with one pit. Obituaries and photos for 80% so far, as you say time consuming but rewarding. Ive also taken photos of Kildwicks War memorial which will be put on The Yorkshire Indexers site shortly I came across Hartleys medals a couple of weeks ago it would be nice to put more info to them Ady
Ady Monday, April 21, 2008 09:11	http://www.yorkshireindexers.co.uk/forums/links/showlink.php?do=showdetails&l=11925 Heres the link to the Kildwick WM. Some of the lads may be from the Sutton in Craven area. Ady
Andrew Monkhouse Tuesday, April 22, 2008 06:06	Pertaining to the Kildwick WM there are a couple of names that are duplicated on both the Sutton and Kildwick war memorials. Ady, are you a military medal collector like myself ? You�ve taken a very keen interest in Hartley Feathers WW1 medals. I was fortunate enough (and delighted) to acquire the Death Plaque to one of the fallen on the Kildwick memorial about 6 months ago, namely Frederick George Carlton. Just for the record, WW1 Death Plaques are almost 5 inches in diameter, made out of bronze and were presented, along with the medals, to the next of kin of those who died during the Great war. With this particular Death Plaque came a rather sombre cutting from the Keighley News as follows : Keighley News Page 5 5th Column 28th October 1916 CROSSHILLS PRIVATE F.G.CARLTON MISSING Mrs Carlton of Junction, Crosshills has this week received from the record office in York information that her son Private Frederick George CARLTON of the West Riding Regiment has been missing since the fighting on October 5th somewhere in France. Mrs Carlton has also received a letter from Drummer George W Fletcher, A Keighley young man who is in the same platoon as her son, as follows : �I am very sorry that it should fall to my lot to be the bearer of sad tidings. I myself am in the same platoon as your son Fred was in. We have been in plenty of scrapping lately. The other day we made a raid on a German trench, we had several casualties killed, wounded and missing. Your son Fred was one of those missing, none of the lads saw him after we went over so we cannot say whether he was taken prisoner of war or whether he was killed. We, his mates, send you all our deepest sympathy and we hope that you, like we are doing, will hope for the best and hope that he is found. We are all sorry to lose him for he was a good lad and wherever he may be we trust in God and hope for the best and may God�s will be done. I have a bible which Fred picked up out here and he used to read it often. I will look after it and if I am spared to get home on leave I will let you have it� Private Carlton enlisted in February 29 last and after training at Brocton Camp went out to France just over three months ago. He had not been home since leaving this country. He was very closely connected with the Eastburn Methodist Church having been a Sunday School Teacher there for many years and he also held office in the church of which he was a member. He was thirty years of age and prior to joining the forces worked at Messrs. William Davy and Co grease extracting works at Sutton Mills. He was highly respected by all who knew him and was a bright and cheery young man. Kighley News Page 3 7th Column (4 down) PICTURE
Ady Tuesday, April 22, 2008 09:43	Hi Andy I wouldnt class myself as a serious collector but im interested in the West Riding Regiment TF in the great war as a lot of lads from my nearby town(Cleckheaton) fought and died with them so ive done a fair bit of research on them.I aquired Hartley Feathers pair the other week as they had a TF number and there are a lot of Feathers in my area so checking the census only gave me one option Hartley born Kildwick/Sutton Ive a few medals and plaques to the Cleck and Spenborough lads at present im researching a church war memorial. The Yorkshire Indexers site has a lot of War Memorials on it there are a lot around Craven that need to be added. Ady
Andrew Monkhouse Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:02	Ady, would you mind if we exchange email addresses? I�ve had quite a few medal groups to the W Riding R in the past, but have slowly moved them on to upgrade my collection � a lot of Ozzie medals these days (sacrilege !). One particular group I sold last year was a 1915 trio with Ed VII Volunteer LSGC to 3265 Pte J Bottomley W Rid R (4124 2nd V/B on LSGC). I hope he wasn�t from Cleck� or Spen� ! If I come across any more TF medals to the West R Reg�t I�ll let you know, perhaps we can do a trade. I wouldn�t mind getting my hands on Hartley Feather�s medal pair if they are surplus to requirement having found out he�s not from Cleckheaton For over 20 years I�ve been searching for medals to Sutton lads, particularly names on the park memorial, but with no success thus far. So I�ve expanded my search to the villages of Glusburn, Crosshills, Kildwick, Farnhill, Eastburn and Steeton just to stop me from going insane with frustration. Fortunately I found the Death Plaque to Frederick George Carlton listed on the Kildwick memorial about 6 months ago. Around the same time a single British War Medal appeared on ebay to Oscar Brown who is listed directly above Frederick George Carlton on the same memorial. I was horrified when my very substantial bid was outbid in the dying seconds. I mean, who in God's name would want Oscar Brown's British War Medal except me ! My never ending search thus continues�
Joan Cowling Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:44	If any of you come up with anything on Cowling pls. let me know.
Andrew Monkhouse Tuesday, April 22, 2008 21:04	Joan, I've just extended my medal search to include Cowling, anything to increase the odds of finding these proverbial needles in the haystacks !
Nancy Wadsworth Monday, April 28, 2008 16:28	Andrew I have the WW1 Death Plaque for my grandfather Frederick Simpson presented to my grandma Edith Simpson plus some medals. Thanks for the information about these plaques. I didn't realise what it actually was until now.
Andrew Monkhouse Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:15	Ah, excellent good news Nancy, that narrows my search down from 40 recipients named on the Sutton war memorial to 39 Great that you've also still got the Death Plaque that goes with the medals. There were over a million Death Plaques, otherwise known as Memorial Plaques or Dead Men's Pennies, produced commemorating the ultimate sacrifice of men and women who died between the 4th August 1914 and 30th April 1920 In addition, a WW1 Memorial Scroll was issued to next-of-kin along with the Memorial Plaque. Is the scroll also there with Frederick's medals and plaque Nancy ? It may still be inside the small protective cardboard tube it was posted in.
Andrew Monkhouse Wednesday, May 21, 2008 11:45	Just have to report (big yawn) that last night I bought a WW1 single war medal on ebay (via an email alert from Ady) to 6666 Joseph Smith who is named on the Kildwick memorial. Not Sutton but getting damn close. PRIVATE J. SMITH, Duke of Wellington Regt of Farnhill was killed in action 19th September 1914. He was formerly an employee of Sir J.C. Horsfall, Hayfield, Glusburn, and left a widow and one child. Son of Alfred and Margaret Ann Smith of Bucklar Hill, Farnhill; husband of Mary Elizabeth Smith. As an aside, I have a rather curious affliction that necessitates a need in me to check out and cross-reference names listed on local war memorials. I have discovered that Harry Grimston appears on no less than 3 separate war memorials � Kildwick, Eastburn and Cononley. It is definitely the same man as �Cravens Part in the Great War� lists just the one man by the name of H Grimston and the �Commonwealth War Graves Commission� lists only one H Grimston casualty for the entire country. I can sense that everyone will sleep much better tonight having been enlightened on this fascinating finding ! :-)
Joan Cowling Wednesday, May 21, 2008 20:11	Andrew - Is there a name or number engraved on those large pennies? Have you been to any of the Militaria Fairs at Pudsey Civic hall - just been to one, numerous collectors and everything possible for sale in connection with WW1 and 2. V. interesting even if you don't buy?
Andrew Monkhouse Wednesday, May 21, 2008 23:31	Yes Joan, the large Death Plaques show Britannia bestowing a laurel crown on a rectangular tablet bearing the full name (including all middle names) of the dead in raised lettering. Rank was purposely omitted because everybody died equally fighting for the same cause. All individual medals however did include name, rank, number and regiment. To answer you other question, the local military fairs, Tetley�s bitter and proper fish �n� chips are all things I miss (in that order) by choosing to live in the southern hemisphere !
Denis Pickles Norfolk Thursday, May 22, 2008 13:41	You appear to be very knowledgable about WW1 medals Andrew. Perhaps you might be able to tell me something about a set that I have in my possession. I believe the medals, which were awarded to my uncle, Arthur Preston born in Wheatlands Lane, Crosshills, were known as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. There is a clasp to the 1914 Star. Uncle Arthur must have joined up as soon as war was declared. He was in the Army Service Corps and his army number was MS/1345. He was in France soon after joining up. He survived the war, though I know he was wounded [shrapnel?] and briefly at the end of the war he was a prisoner of war after being shot down over Belgium. No he wasn't in the ASC then. After he recovered from his injury I was told that he wasn't fit enough to work with horses any more so he transferred to the Royal Airforce and trained as a pilot. The other two medals are inscribed 2 Lieut Arthur Preston RAF. I never met uncle Arthur. He emigrated to Africa after the war. Alan did, en route for Malaya in a troop ship in 1956] How do you access to the Medal Card Index? It might tell me a bit about the first three years of his service.
Andrew Monkhouse Friday, May 23, 2008 02:56	Hi Denis, a very nice group of medals you have there. Enough to give a man like me gravel rash on his tongue ! Your Uncle Arthur Preston lived at 3 Wheatlands Lane, Crosshills and entered the Theatre of War within 2 months of the outbreak of WW1 on 5th October 1914. The Medal Index Card (MIC) doesn�t state where, but it would have been France � 99% probability. The MIC also confirms his entitlement to the 1914 Star (or Mons Star as it is sometime known by) of which only 400,000 were awarded, compared with 2,350,000 1914-15 Stars that were awarded later on, mainly to �Kitchener�s Volunteers� The majority of Mons Star recipients were to soldiers of the pre-war British Army, the �Old Contemptibles� who landed in France soon after the outbreak of the First World War and who took part in the retreat from Mons. In October 1919, the King sanctioned the award of a �5th Aug-22nd Nov� clasp or bar to the Mons Star to all who had been �under fire� in France or Belgium during or between Aug � Nov 1914. The MIC confirms Arthur Preston received this clasp. It looks like your Uncle was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the RAF on 13th February 1920. It also looks like he returned his 1914 Star for some reason. Maybe he thought it had been incorrectly named to his previous unit (MS/1345 Pte A Preston A.S.C.) and should have been named 2 Lieut Arthur Preston RAF. In actual fact all 3 medals are 100% correctly named. This is only speculation on my part as to why he may have sent his Mons Star back. There is no mention of him being wounded on his MIC which is not to say he wasn�t wounded. The only time it would be mentioned is if a soldier was incapacitated out of the services due to wounds or disease. In this case the MIC would state S.W.B. meaning Silver War or Wound Badge. The purpose of this badge was to prevent men of military age, but not in uniform, from being harassed by women pursuing them with white feathers. (think I might try wearing one of these myself and see if my wife stops harassing me !) There is no mention of him being a POW. Again that�s not to say he wasn�t a POW, but more often than not this type of information was added to the MIC It looks like the 3 medals + clasp were his full entitlement. WW1 medals to the RAF or RFC (Royal Flying Corp as it was previously called) are quite collectable, particularly to an officer, even more so to a Pilot shot down and taken POW. He started off with the Army Service Corp and whilst the A.S.C. may not seem overly inspiring at first glance, compared with say, front line regiments, these were the unsung heroes of the British Army in the Great War. The A.S.C. were the men who operated the transport and stores. Soldiers can not fight without food, equipment and ammunition. In the Great War, the vast majority of this tonnage, supplying a vast army on many fronts, was fetched from England. Using horsed and motor vehicles, railways and waterways, the A.S.C. performed prodigious feats of logistics and were one of the great strengths of organisation by which the war was won. As for Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, this was a strip cartoon published in the Daily Mirror 1919-1956. It concerned the adventures of a family of animals. Pip, the father, was a dog, while the Mother, Squeak, was a penguin. Wilfred was the child and was a rabbit. After the First World War 1914-18, three medals were awarded to most of the British servicemen that had served from 1914 or 1915. They were the 1914 or 1914-15 Star, the British War Medal, and the British Victory Medal. They were irreverently referred to as Pip, Squeak, and Wilfred and are so now - even in the 21st century ! Denis, I've emailed your Uncle's MIC to the web-master and asked if he can forward on to you If anybody else has any medals they would like more information on including approximate valuations, I am only too willing to assist where ever I can. WW2 medals are virtually impossible to research at the moment because the government hasn�t yet released the service files for public viewing.
Denis Pickles Norfolk Friday, May 23, 2008 07:42	Andrew, Thank you for that most interesting and enlightening information. And provided so quickly too! The information on the MIC is inaccurate insofar as it relates to uncle Arthur's RAF service. In the envelope which contains the medals are photostats of papers relating to his brief service in the RAF. They show that he was commissioned - List 131 - 2nd Lt on 20th January 1918. They also show his postings. Actually I've never looked at them so closely before Andrew. You've whetted my interest! They show that he was posted to No5 OCW [Officer Cadet Wing?] at St Leonards on 17 Sept 1917, to No1 OCW on 8th November, to SMO ? Reading on 3rd December and from there to 33rd Wing at Lakesdown? on 3rd March 1918. He was with 108 Sqdn on 14 June 1918 and he was at Nor? Flying School in Turnberry a week later. The records show that he was posted 'Missing' on 3rd September 1918 but he turned up as a prisoner of war at Karlsruhe the same day. He was repatriated on 23rd December 1918. There are various references after that when he was posted to NWAFIS [North West Area Flying Instructor School?] at Redcar and transferred to the 'Unemployed List' on 14th May 1919. I was told by a friend who used to be employed as a designer at De Havillands, that 108 Squadron were equipped with aircraft that were slow and cumbersome and they were sitting ducks for the German fighter planes. Perhaps that it why Uncle Arthur didn't last long in the air. I wonder if it would be possible to find out more about the period between 1914 and late 1917 when he was in the army and before he tranferred to the RAF?
Andrew Monkhouse Friday, May 23, 2008 10:03	Hi Denis, the only way to find out more information on your Uncle Arthur�s WW1 service is to access his service and attestation files which are hopefully housed at the National Archives in Kew, Richmond, Surrey. Unfortunately, many WW1 files were destroyed by fire during the London Blitz of 1940, but with a bit of luck Arthur Preston�s file will still be there. Two ways of doing this. Either in person where you can call in as a guest and photocopy his file, or you can request a researcher to do the work for you. I have used an Australian researcher on several occasions and he has contacts in the UK who can access these files. He charges AU$ 30 last time I used him (just short of 15 pounds), only if he finds information. There is no charge if the file has been destroyed. He name is Lieutenant Colonel Neil Smith and he can be contacted via email : milhis@alphalink.com.au If you wish to go ahead, just email Neil with Arthur�s full name, service number and unit and he will do the rest. If you prefer me to contact Neil on your behalf I�m happy to do that also. I can settle up with Neil in Oz currency, post you the information and you can deposit the converted amount into my Barclay�s account. Back to Arthur Preston, I have brought up the 1901 census page which shows the following information. All these people were living at 3 Wheatlands Lane, Crosshills in 1901. Arthur was 5 years old being born in 1896. His brothers were Thomas aged 11, Harry aged 10, Herbert aged 4. Then there were Margaret and Mary both aged 1 (obviously twins). The head of the household was Marshall Preston aged 38, born in Farnhill. His wife was Hannah from Manchester, also 38 years. Also living in the same household was the Father-in-Law Thomas Smith aged 70 originally from Glusburn who was a retired Carpenter / Joiner Again I have emailed this information to the web-master and asked if he would kindly forward it on to you Denis.
LINDA HARRISON Thursday, May 29, 2008 21:27	I wonder if any of the medal collectors can point me in the right direction to try to regain the MM. which was awarded posthumously to my grandmother's brother in WW1.My sister had it and unbeknown to me she took it to a shop in Wigan and I suppose sold it because she felt it was unlucky to have in the house.I am upset about it and wonder if there is any central group I can appeal to.
Andrew Monkhouse Friday, May 30, 2008 08:37	Hi Linda, there are a number of "medals lost/wanted" web-sites that can be googled where you can list the details of the MM. Being an MM for gallantry it will almost certainly still be in circulation or sat in somebody's collection, rather than having been melted down for its silver content which often happened with the more common silver WW1 British War Medals. Out of interest do you happen to have his name, regimental number and regiment ? If so I can do a bit of research on him if you like. I would also recommend doing an ebay search with his surname and regimental number. Save it into your 'Favourite Searchs' under any country, link it to your email address and if it ever surfaces on ebay you will get an automatic email notification. Good luck with your search
Ady Lowe Sunday, June 1, 2008 13:14	Hi Everyone Ive just come into possession of a pair of Great War Medals to a 5094 Pte Henry Herd who was born in Kildwick and served in the West Ridings Regiment(2/5th) and Yorkshire Regiment (4th) with whom he became a POW in 1918.I have his full service record from the burnt series and am just enquiring if Box Laithes Farm is still around as that was given as his address on Enlistment.Steven Herd as his next of kin. Linda his entry in the London Gazette should be available to view online(although it wont give details how he won it) Andrew have sent you an email which should prove interesting for you. Thanks Adrian
Ady Friday, July 4, 2008 20:19	Had some excellent news today reference my medals to Henry Herd. I went to Keighley and checked the Keighley News microfiche...Bingo i found a write up that ties in with his Service History i have reference his woundings in 1917 and to top it off is a Photo of the lad in Sept 1917 in his West Ridings uniform...He was Known as H Neville Herd..Born Burnsall lived Kildwick/Oakworth. One happy Bunny today...Great Resource at the library all names are indexed on card system Great War and WW2 names. Andrew hopefully have the Victory Medal for you Sunday...He has write up in paper but couldnt view it today. Adrian

Posting to the forum is de-activated due to lack of use.

You are welcome to browse through posts but cannot add comments or start new topics.